A Wake-Up Call With Ettitude’s Phoebe Yu

Available on Apple and Spotify.

It’s time we take a closer look at our bedsheets. After all, we’re wrapped up in them for eight hours a day. (Well, on a good night. Six hours is nothing to sneeze at.) 

Our host Janet Kraus chatted with Phoebe Yu, founder of Ettitude and PLNTmatter, two companies developing plant-based fabrics. As a consumer, Phoebe struggled to find sheets that were soft, breathable, affordable, and good for the planet. Now, her companies lead the way in bringing natural materials to the market. 

In this episode, you’ll hear:

• Why bedding has historically been marketed as just décor.
• The connection between bedsheets and sleep quality and skin health.
• How all bamboo fabric is not created equal — and the difference between the conventional process and the cleaner closed-loop process Phoebe developed.
• How polyester — which makes up 60% of all clothing — may disrupt hormones and shed microfibers into our oceans.
• Whether plant-based alternatives to polyester, silk, wool, and cashmere outperform the originals.

Learn more about Ettitude here. 

About Phoebe Yu

Phoebe Yu is a sustainability entrepreneur and materials innovator with more than 20 years of experience in textiles, supply chains, and regenerative materials. She is the founder and CEO of Ettitude and co-founder and CEO of PLNTmatter, where she develops sustainable, high-performance alternatives to conventional textiles and materials. Recognized as one of Forbes China 100 Most Influential Chinese in 2023, she is a leading advocate for circular economy solutions and the future of regenerative materials.

Meet the Host:

Janet Kraus: I’m Janet, a serial start-up founder and CEO, twin-girl mom, and wife to a fun and funny guy. I am on a mission to build healthier thinking in young people, stop toxic division, spotlight hopeful climate action, and advocate for safe AI.

Transcript

Janet Kraus: Welcome back to Bluedot Living's podcast, where we imagine if innovators and changemakers might actually be making progress toward a healthier and more sustainable world. Because as we interview folks, the good news is, in spite of what you might be hearing, they are.

About 20 years ago, Phoebe Yu moved from China to Australia. Like we all do, she got an apartment, and she went out to start shopping for sheets. And the way she expressed it to me was she found herself having two choices: either beautiful luxury sheets that cost an arm and a leg but had a really lovely hand feel, or affordable sheets that kind of felt a little too close to sandpaper for her liking.

So all she really wanted were sheets that were soft and breathable and comfortable to sleep in. And if possible, she was also hoping maybe they could be better for the planet. And she thought, “That can't be too much to ask for, is it?” So today's guest is Phoebe Yu. She is the founder of two companies, Ettitude and a newer company, Plant Matter.

She didn't set out to become a materials innovator, but she became one. She was a consumer who solved the problem and along the way started to question how textiles were made, what fabrics actually do to our bodies, and whether it's possible to combine softness, performance, health, and sustainability. So today we're going to talk about sleep. We're going to talk about overheating. We're going to talk about textiles. We're going to talk about bamboo. We're going to talk about fabrics and how we wrap ourselves in fabrics every single day, and if we had better ones, we might actually feel better. So Phoebe, welcome to Imagine If.

Phoebe Yu: Thank you for having me, Janet.

Janet Kraus: So let's get started. I want to know, when it comes to healthier living, I think we've all gotten to a place that we actually think about, you know, when we put stuff on our faces, whether that's skincare or makeup, or when we wash our dishes and we get stuff on our hands that sort of sinks into our skin, we kind of know there are some better choices.

But it's my opinion that fewer people really think about the fabrics that go on their body, and specifically, I'm not sure how many people actually think about what sheets they're sleeping in. So can you help me understand why it is so important to think about the sheets I sleep in? What's the connection between my sheets and my health?

Phoebe Yu: Yeah. So I always think the sheets are that last mile to your sleep, right? It directly connects to and touches your skin for eight hours at night. So we pay a lot of attention to what we put on our face, the skincare, but we don't think about what you sleep on for decades. I think there are a couple of reasons.

First, sleep itself wasn't taken seriously as a health priority until very recently, right? For decades, there was almost this cultural badge of honor that “I'll sleep when I'm dead,” right? That's America.

Janet Kraus: Sadly, yeah.

Phoebe Yu: Yeah. So it's only been the last 10 years with advocates like Andrew Huberman, Matthew Walker, and Arianna Huffington that sleep has become a real health conversation. People realize your sleep actually impacts your health. So if the parent category, sleep, was underrated, people were not even thinking about how good their bedding is, right? And then bedding was a category like home decor. In stores, people will think, “Yeah, what color do I want? How to match it with my curtains or furniture.” They really don't think about, “Oh, is there any health implication of my bedding?” And then even for bedding, they also kind of usually tell the consumer, “Ah, thread counts, new colors, weaves.”

I think nobody was talking about the potential health benefits, because for sleep — we recently learned from all these scientists and advocates — if you don't get good sleep, your alertness is really like — your brain is kind of like — you're drunk. If you don't get good sleep, you are operating through your day literally like you're drunk. You have brain fog. It shortens your lifespan. So it's really something that I think people should really pay attention to now that you know the science behind it. I religiously have my eight-hour sleep. Every day we have so much going on in our lives, and I have to try to learn new things all the time in this age of AI. So the brain has to stay alert and high performance. So sleep really, really matters.

Janet Kraus: So you said two things in there that really caught my attention, and you're so right. The way in which we think about sleep today is so different. When I was in college, it was like, “How little sleep can I survive on? I can make it in four hours, I'm good to go.” Today, it's so understood that the connection between your brain and your health is integral. And then the second one is true. Forever I thought, and maybe even until I really started being in this space with sustainability and thinking about how health is so connected to products, that I thought about sheets as decor. I thought of them as which shade of blue do I want, right?

I really want to hear you tell us a little bit about materials and fabric and why knowing about your fabric makes a difference to your health.

Phoebe Yu: I think a lot of consumers, even in fashion, start to be educated. Like, conventional cotton requires a lot of chemicals to grow, and a lot of water, so it's not great. And also it matters how you process it, right? Even organic cotton, how you're finishing it, how you dye it also matters. Is there any harmful chemical used from the starting point of growth to the processing to the end product? I think people didn't think that way because most consumers are not chemical scientists, right? And why it matters — I think people realize if you're wearing polyester, it disrupts your hormones, and it's not good for your health. Skin is our biggest organ. When you're lying in your bedding for eight hours every night, night in, night out, there's also a pillowcase on your skin.

When people think, “I put on clean beauty on my face,” but then you sleep on some not-so-clean textile, you're kind of missing the point, isn't it? So you're still taking on these toxins, unknowingly, every night where you suppose your body is open to repair itself. Like even bamboo, there's a lot of confusion out there. There is like the bamboo viscose that still uses a toxic way to process it, right? Bamboo is all great as a raw material, so that's why I came up with clean bamboo, to make sure the process itself is also cleaner.

Janet Kraus: Let's break this down a little bit. You, having come from textiles, you thought to yourself, “I think we can do better,” and you decided to start with the fabric or the fiber of bamboo. When we think of most sheets as being cotton, why did you choose bamboo?

Phoebe Yu: Well, first, with my Chinese background, for thousands of years, we have been very fond of bamboo as a raw material, right? It's a super plant. Well, it's actually a weed, but it's such a super plant, so sustainable. It grows super fast. It mostly only relies on rainwater to grow, and also it is actually used as a plant to help soil health in Asia. So as a raw plant, it's amazing. So I like two weeds. One is bamboo, as a weed on the land. I also like seaweed as a weed in the ocean.

Janet Kraus: I know.

Phoebe Yu: I think these are the two super materials I really love.

Janet Kraus: Me, too. I'm always like, “Bamboo and kelp are the best plants on the planet. They are like weeds that do magic.”

Phoebe Yu: Yeah. And then they both can be food sources, right? It depends on the variety. Bamboo can go into furniture construction, but also 30 years ago, there was technology that came along so that you can turn bamboo into textile. However, the first generation of those technologies still used heavily harmful chemicals to process it, right? So it's called the rayon viscose process. I think for many of the consumers, this might be the first time they hear about that, but some consumers might already know that.

So not all bamboo is created equal. It's not just because it's made of bamboo that it means it's good. So you have to ask the question, what process are you using to turn bamboo into a fiber, right? Bamboo is extremely sturdy and hard. How do you turn that into a soft fiber? Are there a lot of chemicals involved? So the rayon viscose process, they dissolve bamboo in something close to an industrial-strength drain cleaner called caustic soda. 

Janet Kraus: So in order to turn that thing that we see, that stalk of bamboo, into a fiber for a fabric, you have to put it in this caustic soda.

Phoebe Yu: Because you have to wash out the harmful chemicals, it also uses a lot of energy and water. So overall the process wasn't great. So I was aware of that, but I love bamboo, so that's why I said, “It is such a great raw material. Is there a better way, a cleaner way to process it?” Right? So that's why I came up with using the Lyocell process that uses an organic solvent to dissolve the bamboo. And also it's a closed-loop system, so even the solvent is recycled within the system. We recycle the water, and it's only clean water that goes out, so it's not harmful to the environment.

Janet Kraus: If it's good for the planet, it's good for us, and vice versa. When it's good for us, it's good for the planet. So when we're making these choices to impact the environment, you know, it's got a personal impact, as well. And so just keeping that systems-thinking in mind. This is what you shared with me that I love, is that you went out to solve a problem for yourself. You ended up becoming a materials innovator expert. Now you're taking this idea, this innovation, this new knowledge that you have about fabrics, and making it not just for the sheets that you sell through Ettitude, but you've spun off a company called PLNTmatter.

Tell us about that and what makes you so excited about that, because I want to say this for our listeners: I think where you're going with PLNTmatter, you're reducing our need to think this through because you're getting this into more and more brands. Tell us.

Phoebe Yu: Yeah, exactly. This all comes directly from everything I learned building Ettitude. So Ettitude is almost like a proof of concept, right? So clean bamboo showed that a plant-based, low-impact material could outperform the conventional default and be cost-effective. I think a lot of brands are hesitant to use it, like, “Oh, maybe it doesn't perform as well, maybe it's too expensive,” this and that. I use Ettitude as proof that no, you could match the performance or sometimes even outperform it. Our fabric definitely is softer, cooler, more breathable, and better for the planet than most conventional textiles, right?

But PLNTmatter then became the platform that can take this further, right? So we are building this plant-based replacement material for some of the highest-impact fibers in fashion and performance wear like polyester, silk, and wool. We also call it not wool, not cashmere, not silk. So it also kind of invokes the question. People say, “What is this? Not wool, but looks like wool, right? It's not cashmere.” So we literally have people from those luxury fashion brands, we give them our non cashmere, and they touch it. 

Before we tell them, they just say, “Oh, where does this cashmere come from? It's really good.” I say, “No, this is plant-based.” They say, “What?” Just to see their face, like they don't believe it, right? A plant-based material could kind of mimic that at that level. So I think providing this whole platform so that we can have this plant-based alternative that matches the performance characteristics of the originals, and also considers all the animal welfare, the land use, and also the processing, like costs, right? Less chemicals go into this. And also at the end of life, they are naturally biodegradable because it's plant-based. 

Janet Kraus: Think about this, I just want to take a second, because, you know, you know this is big, but when I think about it, it gets me so excited because right today, the consumer has to know so much to pick fabrics that are better. What you're building with PLNTmatter is I don't have to think, I just need to look for that, and if you get that into the designers' hands who make the clothes I wear — and having been in fashion, I know how hard it is to source really good fabrics that are more sustainable. You're transforming it in a way that makes it so easy for the consumer.

Phoebe Yu: Yeah. I think in the age of AI, we can all just, like, ask ChatGPT, “What does this mean?” And if it's not good, then you should write to the brand. “Oh, I don't think this is good.” Like, you know, I think that also matters. Actually, that's a little small act you could do. Like, “Hey, I don't think this is actually sustainable. I think, you know, you could do better,” right? Or just ask brands the questions. 

Janet Kraus: What we're always trying to do is help our listeners to feel like they have agency. And writing to your companies that you love and saying, “Have you checked out fabrics by PLNTmatter? I bet you could make a line that's plant-based, and I would love to buy that.” The brand is going to be like, “Let me look into that.” Right? You do have agency to make a difference.

Phoebe Yu: Yeah.

Janet Kraus: OK, so building on that, you're committed to a healthier, more sustainable lifestyle, and your philosophy is progress, not perfection, where you've talked about that. What three changes, after bedding, what three changes have you made in your life that you feel are the highest leverage, best changes that have made you feel better and you feel like are making a big impact?

Phoebe Yu: Yeah, first is to buy fewer things, but buy better quality. I have a “one thing in, one thing out” rule now; otherwise, things in your house just start to clutter. So if there's something that breaks down or I think I'm not using it enough, I try to donate them, recycle them, or even sell them on Facebook Marketplace, right? One thing out, one thing in, then I get something new in. So I don't keep accumulating stuff. When I buy something new, I really want to understand what it is, how it's made, will it last, right? Do I really love it? Every time I look at it, it's just like, “Oh, yeah, I like that.” So that applies to clothing, kitchen things, everything. Less volume, more intention.

Second, I try to be plastic-free as much as I can. I gave a TEDx talk last year called “The Hidden Plastic in Your Closet.” I think a lot of consumers don't know that 60% of all clothing is made from polyester. Cotton is not even the biggest material in textiles; it's polyester. So we all know that it disturbs hormones, sheds microfibers that pollute oceans, and enters the food chain. So in my own life, yeah, I just try so hard to be plastic-free, but it's also difficult. So that's why I'm so excited for PLNTmatter, so we can give people an alternative.

Janet Kraus: Yes. That's the thing that I think the oil companies did so well, is they convinced us it was our problem to fix. And as a consumer, I want to fix the problem, but until the industry changes, I don't have options. And when the options come out, I'm excited to change, right?

Phoebe Yu: Exactly. And third, I recently started to buy my seafood from local small-boat fishing families. The quality is so good. Because they are fresh-caught right in the Channel Islands in California, they're never frozen, and it's not expensive, right? So it's good for ocean health, it's supporting the local community. These choices actually exist if you are willing to look for them. None of these are dramatic or require a lot of sacrifice. So it's at a good price, and it's a good quality, so why wouldn't you, right? So they are just things I do every week without thinking too much about them anymore.

Janet Kraus: All right, so buy less, buy better. Go plastic-free whenever you can. Try to be intentional, and then look for local seafood suppliers if it's possible. It's harder in the middle of the country, obviously.

Phoebe Yu: That's true. Yeah. Maybe local produce. Yeah, local produce. Yeah. Farmers' market.

Janet Kraus: Those are great tips. OK. So as we come to the end of this podcast, we like to ask our guests to answer a question, because this is all about building hope and a vision for the future. So I'm going to start you out with the start of the sentence, and you finish it for us. So Phoebe Yu, imagine if…

Phoebe Yu: So imagine if every product on the shelf had to tell you the truth about what it cost the planet to make it, right? Instead of just giving you all this greenwashing, they are truly honest about how it is made, so the consumer actually had the information to choose. I think you can see the entire economy would reorganize itself in 10 years. Because people are not, as you said, fundamentally opposed to doing the right thing. They are operating without the information that they need to make the right choice. So give them the truth and the ability to act on it, and they will. So that's the world I really want to be building toward and living in.

Janet Kraus: I love it. And that's what we're trying to do here, help our consumers know the companies that are putting that information on their packaging between here and that moment, because I think you're right, we would all reorganize to buy the better products if we knew the real cost of what they take to make the resources, et cetera. Thank you, Phoebe.

Phoebe Yu: Yeah, and thank you. I think it's so important, yeah, for Bluedot Living to be telling these kinds of stories, right? I think people don't need more warnings about what's wrong. They need practical, helpful examples that things can change.