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Years ago, when an ambitious 14-year-old named Cleo walked into Victoria Riskin’s life and asked to be involved with Bluedot Living, neither realized their age gap would be one of their greatest tools in the fight to save our planet. “It’s not just about the grandmothers or the students standing on the barricades separately,” Victoria says. “It’s about that beautiful moment where those two worlds meet and realize we’re tending the same garden.”
In this episode, our hosts take a turn in the hot seat. Victoria and Cleo, an unlikely duo bonded by their passion for sustainable living, share what each of them can learn from the other in a conversation across generations.
Cleo might not be able to convince Victoria to take up thrifting, and a platform to speak out without inhibitions may only come with time for Cleo, but these two prove the generational gap between Baby Boomers and Gen Z shrinks as they stand alongside each other in the fight for our planet.
In This Episode, You’ll Hear:
- The personal moments that transformed climate change from news to action (and how to recognize yours)
- Daily habits that actually reduce your footprint
- What each generation brings to climate work that the others desperately need
- Practical ways empathy becomes climate action in your own community
Meet the Host:
- Victoria Riskin: I am Victoria. I’m always looking for the best life has to offer despite a turbulent world. I find comfort in the environment and joy in friendships. We have a great team of all ages at Bluedot who inspire me every day as we work together to build community.
- Cleo Carney: I am Cleo, a student at Harvard University, and I strongly believe that conversations, businesses, and the private markets can create profound change. I also love to cook nourishing food, work out in nature, and find sustainable swaps for everyday items and habits.
About Leslie Garrett
Leslie Garrett is an award-winning journalist and author of 16 books, including the bestseller The Virtuous Consumer. A veteran storyteller whose work has appeared in The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and O, The Oprah Magazine, she now focuses on climate and social justice. Currently, she is an editor at Bluedot Living, where she channels her insatiable curiosity into her popular “Dear Dot” and “The Daily Dot” columns.
Transcript
Victoria Riskin: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Bluedot Living podcast, Imagine If, where we explore: Are people actually making a difference on climate change? Because they are. And we have a special episode today with Cleo and me. And we are going to be interviewed by one of the wonderful people who works on our staff, Leslie Garrett, who is “Dear Dot.” She writes this wonderful column called The Daily Dot.
Cleo Carney: Well, Victoria, I'm super excited to be a duo with you. I think we should tell the story of how we met.
Victoria Riskin: Cleo. OK. May I just be real? I'm going to be really honest with you.
Cleo Carney: That's what I like.
Victoria Riskin: The first time I met you, I said, “There is a wonderful old soul,” and I feel like I've known you all my life. Of course, all your life is not very long, but I felt that.
Cleo Carney: It had been 14 years at that time.
Victoria Riskin: You were 14 years old. What do you remember about that first meeting?
Cleo Carney: I remember well, the circumstances of our first meeting were strange because due to COVID restrictions, I was sort of stranded in Martha's Vineyard without my parents inadvertently. But Victoria, and your wonderful partner, David, came over for dinner, and not only were you guys full of just sort of warm energy and told the best stories, I also did have the same feeling. There are some people you meet and you just feel like you’ve known them your whole life and it’s cliché, but you just instantly click.
And we had, depending on which sort of social circles you're in, which dinner parties you're at, some people care a bit more or less about climate. But I remember talking to you about climate and kind of feeling relieved to see someone who maybe wasn't of my generation who really cared and was really interested to hear what I had to say, as well.
Victoria Riskin: Right. And then you came over to my house and you said, “Hey, can I work for you?” You were 14 years old.
Cleo Carney: Bluedot was just being incubated then. It was kind of just starting out.
Leslie Garrett: Well, it's interesting hearing you guys talk about generations, because that is what I would really like to talk about. The fact that climate change is not a new problem, but I think it's experienced differently by different generations, so depending on when we were born, we seem to have sort of a different understanding of it.
So you two are from very different generations. Victoria, I'm thinking you likely never heard the phrase “climate change” when you were growing up. Cleo, I’m wondering if your mother wrote in your baby book that it was your first words. I'm going to start with you, Victoria. When did climate change first feel real for you?
Victoria Riskin: Good question. I have to say, I first had a conversation about climate change in a discussion with a dear friend who I wanted to become more involved in my work on international human rights, and he said to me, “I’m interested, but only if you are” — this was Human Rights Watch, my organization — “only if you guys are focusing on climate change.”
And I thought, “Well, but we're not an environmental organization. Why would we do that?” But I really wanted to recruit him into the fold. And this is probably 15 years ago, 15, 20 years ago even. But I listened carefully to what he was telling me. And I realized that as the Earth warmed, there would be human rights issues that would be involved, that people would find themselves in drought areas and have to move, that food would be less available, that water would be less available.
I began to make the inventory. I was on the board of Human Rights Watch at the time, and I said, “We need to start a division or projects looking at the impact of climate change.” It was an uphill sale at that time, and now it’s one of the pillars of the organization’s work across all continents.
Leslie Garrett: Was there a moment where you personally experienced climate change or where you noticed something that maybe you hadn’t noticed before?
Victoria Riskin: Well, I think the big event — and I've talked about this even on the podcast and with one of our wonderful guests — was that moment in 2017 when we had huge fires, wildfires, that coursed along the mountains above my home in Santa Barbara, and we had to evacuate, and the air was filled with smoke and soot and we didn't know if the house would stand.
And that fire was followed by torrential rain less than a month later, what they called the hundred-year flood. I felt like nature was very angry. And we lost our home and I said, “You know what? I'm a climate refugee. I’m going to now need to move.” Of course, I moved to a beautiful place. So I knew that climate was what we call the existential crisis of the moment. And we’re also facing democracy issues, which are just as big, and they’re very tied together. They’re becoming more tied together in my mind. But I could see this is what our mission is.
Leslie Garrett: So Cleo, what about you? When did climate change first feel real for you? Not this sort of abstract thing.
Cleo Carney: I would say, I think that kind of comes to your first question about generations and that sort of it was in my baby book. I grew up in a very environmentally conscious household. I would say my mother was sort of before her time in understanding the scope of this issue. She studied agricultural economics and had worked in Tanzania helping farmers optimize their agricultural practices. And so she just understood from the human side, but also just the basic economics, that this would be very important.
She's a very pragmatic person. So she kind of doesn’t subscribe to the demoralization of, “What can we do?” She really does believe every little thing counts. And therefore I was raised in that kind of impression, the sort of The Lorax mindset of “do what you can.” And that if you’re having eco-anxiety, it’s best to combat it with eco-action. And so I would say it’s hard to have a pinpoint moment.
I fortunately have never experienced anything as devastating as Victoria has, and therefore I don’t have one moment where it hit home for me. I think for me it’s always been sort of — without trying to sound holier than thou — but kind of basic logic. I mean, if we look at what the future is, as simple as life would be if we wanted to ignore it until obviously we can’t. We can’t, and so I have all my life just tried to do what I have been told is best to do because, what is the point if you don’t try?
Leslie Garrett: My family has had a cottage on Lake Huron pretty much my entire life, and I can remember the moment when I realized I no longer heard the frogs. It was just sort of a recognition. It had probably been getting quieter over years, but I couldn’t specifically remember the night that I just laid there thinking it was silent.
Cleo Carney: That just very briefly makes me think of a piece I wrote for Bluedot a couple years ago where I saw fireflies in Ottawa and I had been living in London. I hadn’t seen them for a while, and I went around the neighborhood, and I noticed the houses that had pesticides sprayed on the lawns didn’t have fireflies. And that was just something that was so clear and evident of what we are doing affects.
Leslie Garrett: I remember that one and I was thinking of another piece you wrote for us, Cleo, about being unable to skate on the Rideau Canal, which is I mean, that’s a sort of a rite of passage every winter for visitors to Ottawa.
Victoria Riskin: What strikes me about this is how on one hand, there's a sense of loss, but on the other hand, there’s also this tremendous sense of caring that comes with the potential loss. So I’m thinking about monarch butterflies, which, you know I’ve always thought they’re lovely, but of course they’re diminishing. And what they feed on is milkweed here. They’re butterfly plants, so near where I live, there are some natural milkweed plants, and I put like a little fencing around and I check them and I have a friend who comes and looks for the larva and sometimes she takes them so that she can make sure that they have a full life and she puts them in a container with a mesh container. And then when they’re ready, she sends them off. The amount of time that it — it’s not an obligation. It feels like this tending to stewardship.
Leslie Garrett: What do you think, Victoria, your generation worries most about with regard to climate change?
Victoria Riskin: I think they worry most about their grandchildren. They know that they’ll probably be OK regarding climate change, although we’re seeing more and more of these events. So it’s affecting people my age and all ages. But as we project out into the future, I think people my age whose way of thinking I value is that they want to make sure life is going to be OK for the next generations.
And you know, I think, gosh, it wouldn’t take that much, but it’s a herculean task at the same time. So what would it take? It would be sort of accepting, and we’re upgrading the grid, electrifying. It takes smart farming, and we have all the tools, amazing tools and technology and knowledge. We have the knowledge, but we don’t have the leadership and we don’t have community, as much as we need leadership and community.
Leslie Garrett: Cleo, speaking of lack of leadership, what do you think your generation worries most about?
Cleo Carney: I think really the size and the scope of the issue. I mean, I am always hesitant to say — kind of be very demoralizing and say — that at this moment in time, we’re in a really bad situation, but obviously because throughout history we’ve always thought we’ve been in really bad situations. That is the human condition.
But I think we never had such polarizing algorithms that we’re subject to all the time. And it feels like in order to solve it, if it can be solved, or at least to alleviate the climate crisis and manage it, we do need unity. And I believe humans, intrinsically you know, we are group people. We are built for unity. But it does feel like we are growing further apart from each other right now.
And I think it’s not unknown that the values my generation has are very, very different from the values that Victoria's generation grew up with. And I think society as a whole has become a lot more consumerist, a lot more about being ostentatious for the sake of being ostentatious, particularly because of social media. So I would say those are the kind of key areas of concern. It feels like there are so many things that need fixing right now, that climate is sort of an afterthought once we do that, but obviously we understand that’s not really how we can go about it conceptually.
Leslie Garrett: Right. So, and I certainly take your point in terms of sort of celebrating consumption — it’s become almost like a hobby — but I also think your generation is getting a lot right. And I’m curious what you think your generation is getting right.
Cleo Carney: I think you’re right. And I think it's also the circles one is exposed to that really influences your perspective on the world. I would say my generation is getting the right empathy. Understanding that humans have the right to exist as they want to exist, and we should be allowed to be individuals. And it’s important to come back to empathy there.
There’s so much exciting innovation that's coming from my generation. I see it on campus here. I have friends who are doing engineering degrees and environmental engineering, and I really think a technocentric approach will be very helpful in the future. But I think it comes back to empathy.
Leslie Garrett: I love that. What about you, Victoria? What did or is your generation getting right?
Victoria Riskin: I can only talk about getting older, so I don’t know what the whole generation is going through. I feel that my generation is a little bit freer. You become freer with yourself to say what you think and feel and to be who you are, and you’re aware of time and the importance of taking action now, because time is limited as you look out across the horizon.
I love what Cleo said about empathy. I mean, I wish we had more empathy just across all generations. There’s kind of a feeding frenzy on anger and toxicity and divisiveness, and that feeding frenzy pays money. You know, that’s what people go and see on YouTube. I was laughing; it was somebody saying, “Oh, we’re going to be a YouTube podcast where we are not going to scream at each other and we're not going to be outraged.” How that could be revolutionary in and of itself, civility and kindness?
And people are doing great things. I don’t want to sound like a Pollyanna, you know, who likes a Pollyanna? But I am totally awestruck by some of the people we’re interviewing. I think about just briefly this guy Jordan Thomas, who was a Hotshot for seven years in Los Padres National Forest, fighting giant forest fires. His wisdom that he’d evolved in that sense of camaraderie with his fellow Hotshotters, but also understanding deeply how forests work and how fire can be managed and be a friend and be helpful, controlled burning. I mean, I just felt, oh my gosh, he’s just extraordinary. And I loved interviewing him.
Leslie Garrett: Yeah.
Victoria Riskin: And I got to interview Eric Garcetti, who is the former mayor of Los Angeles. And what’s exciting about his trajectory was for me, which I didn't know, and I've known him for years — but I didn't know that he’s created a coalition of climate mayors all across the country and around the world. I’ve become more and more convinced that change and healing is more likely to happen at the local level. Because we feel at the big level, we can’t sit around and wait for people to wake up and behave and be civil. That’s not what’s happening. But in our own little world, I think we can be together wherever we are.
Leslie Garrett: Well, harkening back to another very fraught period in history, I was thinking in terms of sort of what your generation and subsequent generations got right: the first Earth Day, the Environmental Protection Agency — I think that was like the late 1960s. I mean, that was hardly a time of peace and calm. Jim Hansen from NASA testified before Congress about, you know, in the New York Times, having a massive headline the next day basically saying, “Climate change is happening.” So, yeah, I think we can’t forget that those are steps that moved us forward, even if there’s maybe been a bit of backsliding.
Victoria Riskin: Those were hallmark moments. And of course, Earth Day was founded in Santa Barbara, or the springboard for it was the terrible oil spill. And Leslie, today, I’m sort of back on the barricades, so to speak, metaphorically, with the possibility of another company drilling oil and the high potential of another oil spill. So it’s not like you get the work completely done. Sometimes you have to keep coming back and saying, “We’re still here.”
And who comes out as fantastic? Who comes out to go to the hearings and protest this very faulty pipeline with an inadequate company wanting to run it? It's the students at UCSB who come out in droves, and it’s the grandmothers, you know, they even have an organization, I don't know, the white-haired ladies or whatever they are. They show up every time. And even high school students, and some of those are our students that we’ve worked with at the Bluedot Institute and teed them up. They come to the hearings and they speak and, you know, I feel like there isn’t a generation gap when we do these things together.
Leslie Garrett: So I want to talk about the biggest changes you’ve each seen in your lifetime in how we respond. What are you seeing that really is giving you hope?
Victoria Riskin: Well, we do this program with young people. We take some of them away on a retreat. We spend a week with them from all different backgrounds, all different socioeconomic levels, all different educational levels, and within 24, 48 hours, they are very bonded because we have a wonderful program that helps them do that. They are very dedicated, and they’re very focused, and they are going to make careers in various different ways that address climate issues.
So whether it’s my young friend who's at Cornell studying fashion design and how to get beyond fast fashion and find new fabrics, what I’m saying is where I get hope is actually in those sessions with those young people or hanging out with Cleo when we talk about these things. My most favorite person.
Cleo Carney: Victoria is also my most favorite person. Not hard to do. I’m not just saying that because I want to keep my job.
Victoria Riskin: Yeah, you still have a job for next week.
Cleo Carney: Yes. Yes. OK. One more week. I would say I touched on it a bit before, but I see hope actually being at universities surrounded by young people who are doing cool things. I do think there has to be some fundamental change in the way we live our lives, but understanding the realities of things, if not that many people want to do that, doesn’t mean we shouldn't stop trying.
But I think technology will be a really big saving grace when it comes down to the wire. I’m involved with the Harvard Venture Capital Group, and so there’s a clean tech team there and we get to talk to different people with different really cool startups. And even though not everything will work, it’s great to see people trying.
Leslie Garrett: What sorts of habits have you adopted personally?
Cleo Carney: I had a stint with veganism, which is highly admirable. Actually, a guest we interviewed, Madame Gandhi, has been plant-based for a number of years, and she spoke about how personally empowering it is because a diet is something you do have control over and has an incredible impact on the planet.
But after that, I haven’t eaten red meat in seven years, and that’s a personal thing. I just do it. I don’t judge anyone who does it, but I know it lowers my environmental footprint and is better for my health. It’s more to me about the attitude one takes of trying to do the small things and also trying to help others do the small things without judgment, without nagging someone.
A lot of the things that are better for the environment are unsurprisingly kind of better for you. Walking more — if I'm getting a coffee, I have a little reusable container that I love, which is great because I can throw it in my bag, but also means I'm not getting all the microplastics from the single-use cup. What really matters is the individual choices I make, even just something as simple as actually cleaning out and recycling my recycling.
Leslie Garrett: Victoria, what about you? What feels easy? What's sort of been a personal habit that’s been easy to adopt and what has felt like a heavier lift for you?
Victoria Riskin: Well, I think the thing I like the most is figuring out what to do with food waste and not throw it in the trash.
Cleo Carney: Do you want to talk about your Lomi?
Victoria Riskin: I would be so delighted to talk about my Lomi! I have two now. Cleo, you haven’t come lately to see me. I have a big food recycler and I have a small one. The small one is called a Lomi. It's actually quite attractive, and I just keep feeding it food and it dries it out, and I have beautiful soil when it's finished.
And then I have another one because that doesn’t quite do the job, that is called the Mill. And it’s quite brilliant, so that if it needs some adjusting, I get a little message on my cell phone that says the lid is open, you should go in and close it, or it’s done cycling or whatever. And I feel like a missionary on this thing, telling everybody how great my machines are.
I think almost every action I take in the kitchen, particularly, there is a consequence of where that paper towel goes, where the plastic box goes. Sometimes I feel I've had a moment of victory because I put something in the right place, or I’ve used fewer paper towels. And then sometimes I feel sad because I came home from the market with something plastic and I’m throwing it in the recycling bin and I don't think it ever gets recycled. So it's a kind of up and down. But I do know, Leslie, that when I do something positive, it’s on my checklist. I feel better. It's like a little dopamine rush.
Leslie Garrett: Yeah. Well, like Cleo was saying, the best response to eco-anxiety is just taking some action. Food is such a great entry point to people wondering what they can do. It’s kind of low-hanging fruit. But, I mean, we put nature on our plate three times a day. So being selective about what we put on our plates makes a huge difference. And as you said, Victoria, food waste.
I think a lot of people don’t realize just how much food waste contributes to greenhouse gas emissions, because I think people don’t understand the amount of methane and carbon dioxide that gets released just from the rotting of food and how much that contributes. So managing food waste is a relatively simple, impactful step people can take.
Cleo Carney: Before we move to the next question, the great Bluedot Living website, which has a couple of my old recipes, also has just a great collection of recipes and sustainability tips.
Victoria Riskin: I would give Cleo a shout out because she’s a great cook, and she’s very thoughtful about every ingredient. You can find those on our YouTube channel too.
Cleo Carney: Yes.
Leslie Garrett: OK. I want each of you to tell the other one action that you would like them to undertake.
Victoria Riskin: Here’s what I think for you, Cleo. I think you have such a wonderful, clear voice, and you just instinctively have knowledge and wisdom. My dream for you is to have other ways, bigger ways for you to communicate. I’m not sure what that looks like. I’m not sure how that would be, but I think you could be a big, big influence provided that it feels natural for you. I think that’s always important, that we just be ourselves. You know, I don’t know what that is, maybe you and I will have some evolution in thinking about that, but you have a lot to offer.
Leslie Garrett: I have one for you, Victoria.
Victoria Riskin: Oh gosh.
Leslie Garrett: And it’s because I heard that you have — I don’t know if aversion is too strong a word — to secondhand clothes. I would think you should start thrifting.
Victoria Riskin: You know, I am such a bad thrifter. OK.
Cleo Carney: Victoria, we can go thrifting together because I’m a good thrifter.
Victoria Riskin: You know, I don’t buy a lot of clothes. I’m not a clothesaholic. I like my little uniform that I wear, and so that’s good. And I like to buy quality clothes that last for a long time. I still have things from 20, 30 years ago that I still wear.
Leslie Garrett: Guys, we’re moving on to a lightning round.
Cleo Carney: OK.
Leslie Garrett: Coffee: reusable cup or disposable?
Cleo Carney: Already answered: reusable. And then you can put it in your bag.
Victoria Riskin: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I hate those plastic coffee cups.
Leslie Garrett: Quick trip to the store: drive, walk, cycle, or bus?
Victoria Riskin: Driving my electric vehicle because it's like 15 miles to get to the store here.
Leslie Garrett: It’s not really.
Cleo Carney: And I cycle. Faster than walking. You can put something in your basket. In Boston, there are all these cycle lanes. I love it.
Leslie Garrett: Finally, the title of this podcast is Imagine If. I want each of you to imagine what the world looks like 50 years from now.
Cleo Carney: I imagine, of course, you know you imagine all the sci-fi things but I imagine an optimized world. A world where maybe it’s a more sort of Scandinavian-designed world, or like when you go to Japan and everything’s done right. I think as we learn more and create more things, we’ll obviously have some places where we go wrong, but an optimized world.
Victoria Riskin: I guess I would wish — I don't know if it’s a wish or imagine — that the highly driven hyper-testosterone maniacs relax, and they’re OK and they’re chill, and that women are just kind of doing their beautiful things that women do and that it’s not such a competitive dog-eat-dog world. It’s a world of joy and appreciation.
And I’m sorry for those who cannot experience that emotionally, because I do experience that and I want everyone — I mean, not all the time — but I want people to just appreciate each other and see each other, and hear each other and listen and not feel they have to dominate.
Leslie Garrett: Well, I’m not surprised that each of you opted for the good, that we got it right, that we now live 50 years in the future in a world of empathy and optimization in the best possible way. So I want to thank you both.
Victoria Riskin: I just want to put a little plug in for some of our other podcasts. One is with a woman who has a beautiful farm called Grainer Farm up in Michigan, and it's the journey of how she and her husband, who was in big commercial real estate, just turned all of their energy to creating this beautiful, sustainable farm with a restaurant and classes and products that they make, and the impact that they’ve had on their community so that people come, gather, hang out in their farm store, sit and have lunch. The power of that is so extraordinary. So that’s a wonderful one of our podcasts.
Cleo Carney: Bun Lai's was really inspiring because it was just sort of an everyday guy who grew up around nature, loved nature, loved to cook, and saw the economic viability of using invasive species to make delicious food.
Victoria Riskin: He’s quite magical. So I think that that’s where we’re at and we hope others will join us and send in their suggestions of who we should talk to.
Cleo Carney: Absolutely. But it was so nice to chat to you, Victoria and Leslie. Kind of be on the other side of it. It’s fun to be interviewed. Thank you so much.
Victoria Riskin: Yeah.
Leslie Garrett: Yeah, thanks for letting me.
Victoria Riskin: Thank you.
Leslie Garrett: Thanks for letting me crash the party.
Victoria Riskin: It’s great to have you. You're always wonderful and your Daily Dot is my favorite. Don't tell anybody.
Thank you for joining us on Imagine If from Bluedot Living. If you want to explore our recipes and products for your home and lifestyle, and read interesting stories, you can find us at bluedotliving.com. And for daily inspiration, you can follow us at @bluedotliving on Instagram.
If you enjoyed this conversation, share it and please add your thoughts in the comments on YouTube. I'm Victoria Riskin, and we’ll be back next week with more stories from great people doing amazing things in their little corner of the planet.
