Note that if you purchase something via one of our links, including Amazon, we may earn a small commission.
Imagine if the food on our plates could do more than nourish us, but also actively restore the planet?
Available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Imagine if we were much more curious about the different flavors around the world and an invasive species wasn't just an ecological threat, but the main course of a delicious, sustainable meal …
In this week’s episode of Imagine If, cohosts Ally Giebutowski and Cleo Carney are joined by Bun Lai, chef and owner of Miya’s Sushi, for a conversation at the intersection of food, climate change, and biodiversity.
Raised in New Haven by parents who believed deeply that food is medicine, Bun grew up immersed in nature: foraging, fishing, and learning from a richly multicultural community. Those early experiences shaped his understanding of food as a source of health, connection, and care for both people and the planet. “It was clear he had a true reverence for nature, strongly influenced by his upbringing,” Cleo says after her chat with Bun. “That being said, his choice to integrate invasive species into his cooking was also influenced by mere practicality. I truly believe the habits we adopt to help the planet can and should be additive, especially if we want them to stick.”
In their conversation, Bun shares how Miya’s Sushi evolved over time, including the gradual move away from unsustainable seafood like tuna, eel, and salmon and the introduction of plant-based dishes and invasive species such as shore crabs, lionfish, and Japanese knotweed. Rather than seeing invasive species solely as an ecological threat, Bun reframes them as a creative opportunity — one that protects native ecosystems while inviting people into sustainability through flavor and curiosity.
In This Episode, You’ll Hear
- Why food sits at the core of community, connection, and health
- How invasive species can become part of climate solutions
- The balance between grassroots action and policy change
- What foraging teaches us about slowing down and reconnecting with nature
- How cultural and ecological diversity can be healing
About Bun Lai
Bun Lai is a James Beard Award nominee and recipient of the 2016 White House Champion of Change Award for Sustainable Seafood. He is the chef and owner of Miya’s Sushi, founded by his mother in 1982 and widely recognized as the world’s first sustainable sushi restaurant.
Known as “the mad scientist of the sustainable sushi movement” by The New York Times, Bun is an educator, speaker, and advocate whose work spans food, climate, and social justice. He is currently developing educational experiences, creative projects, and mission-driven food ventures focused on ecological restoration.
Meet the Hosts:
- Janet Kraus: I’m Janet, a serial start-up founder and CEO, a twin-girl mom, and wife to a fun and funny guy. I am on a mission to build healthier thinking in young people, stop toxic division, spotlight hopeful climate action, and advocate for safe AI.
- Cleo Carney: I am Cleo, a student at Harvard University, and I strongly believe that conversations, businesses, and the private markets can create profound change. I also love to cook nourishing food, work out in nature, and find sustainable swaps for everyday items and habits.
- Victoria Riskin: I am Victoria Riskin. I’m always looking for the best life has to offer despite a turbulent world. I find comfort in the environment and joy in friendships. We have a great team of all ages at Bluedot who inspire me everyday as we work together to build community.
- Ally Giebutowski: I’m Ally, a freshman at Lafayette College. I believe that a sustainable life is a happier life and that human connection is at the heart of it all. Every day, I try to weave greener, more intentional living into every part of my life, whether that’s in the college classroom, in the kitchen, or through meaningful conversations with others.
Transcript
Hosts: Ally Giebutowski and Cleo Carney
Guest: Bun Lai
Bun Lai: I grew up in a household where food was medicine. At home, the first thing my mother would do if we were sick would be to create different recipes. It wasn't really progressive thinking at that point. It was something that her mother did, and I'm sure countless ancestors did.
Vicki Riskin: Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Bluedot Living podcast. I'm Vicki Riskin, the founder of Bluedot Living, and on this podcast, we imagine if people were actually making progress with climate change because so many wonderful people are. Every episode we talk to greet people in the trenches doing amazing things that are big and small to make a difference.
And every week, because we have such great people to interview, my co-host and I duke it out to see who will be the interviewers. So who are my co-hosts, you ask? Great question. Ladies, would you introduce yourselves?
Janet Kraus: Sure. Thanks, Vicki. Hi, I'm Janet Kraus. I'm a serial entrepreneur and I'm a board member at Bluedot Living.
Ally Giebutowski: Hi everyone. I am Ally Giebutowski. I am a freshman at Lafayette College as well as a Bluedot Living intern.
Cleo Carney: Hi guys. I'm Cleo Carney, a student board member of the Blue Institute and a sophomore at Harvard.
Vicki Riskin: Wonderful. And so who's bringing today's guest to the table for us to consider and debate?
Ally Giebutowski: All right. I am excited to introduce our new guest and to debate who should interview him. Before I tell you who it is, I will start by saying, with this guest, we're diving into a topic that sits at the crossroads of climate change, innovation, and food: the rise of invasive species. As habitats change and weather gets more extreme due to climate change, we are seeing invasive plants and animals spread faster than ever, crowding out native species and threatening our ecosystems.
But what if there was a way to turn this ecological problem into a culinary experience? And that is exactly what Chef Bun Lai, the head chef and owner of Miya's Sushi, is doing. Armed with a dive mask, a forager's basket, and a deep belief that food should be not only joyful but also restorative, Bun is a trailblazer who turns crabs from Connecticut's shorelines, wild Japanese knotweed, and even lionfish from Florida into delicious, unforgettable dishes like popcorn crabs and knotweed chips.
His sustainable sushi not only saves native species but shows us just how creative solutions and a sense of adventure can turn a crisis into an opportunity for positive change, which we all agree here is something the world very much needs right now. Okay, so I brought him to the table, no pun intended. And who wants to dig in first to say why they should interview him? Go ahead, ladies.
Vicki Riskin: That was very enticing.
Janet Kraus: I should interview him because I don't know if you said it in your intro, Ally but Miya’s is in New Haven, Connecticut and New Haven, Connecticut is actually truly a hotbed for creativity along a ton of cultural dimensions, from performing arts to food.
Cleo Carney: Did you know in New Haven they have the most restaurants per capita?
Janet Kraus: Yes.
Vicki Riskin: I should move.
Cleo Carney: My sister went to Yale and she tells me that every time I say that Boston is nicer. So yes, I'm sure the Lais know that fact. Go ahead.
Janet Kraus: Right. Well, no, no, no. We know that, and I'm really proud that you know that, which means you've picked a lesser school. Sorry. Ha!
Ally Giebutowski: Cleo, you have to come back. Give her a reason that you should be the interviewer. Don't let her walk all over you.
Cleo Carney: Okay. Well, I will say I am, as we've mentioned in previous interviews, a really big foodie. Sushi is probably my favorite cuisine. I have to confess, I have never been to Japan and had kind of true authentic sushi, but I love all things seaweed. I'll just eat nori as a snack. I love kelp noodles. I love all things of that sort, and they're very good for the environment as well. So I would say that is my proposal.
However, I don't think I'm actually the prime person to interview him because I have done the Granite Farms interview. I feel like so much of sustainability is about food systems, which means that every food person I can say, “Oh, well, I'm a foodie,” but we all eat, and sometimes it's better to not have someone who is deeply invested in that because the everyday person probably doesn't have time to spend 30 minutes preparing kelp noodles. One person I thought of interest might be Vicki Riskin, because Vicki lives on Martha's Vineyard where they have a very good seaweed farming system and kelp community.
Vicki Riskin: So we know that I'm a brilliant chef. But it's true, I live in Martha's Vineyard where we have very robust oysters, clams, all the wonderful things, and seaweed. In fact, we did a Bluedot Living’s cover story for the magazine called “Kelp is on the Way.”
Janet Kraus: I don't want to know about seaweed. I want to know what your invasive species problem is. Do you have one? Because that's what he's out there tackling.
Vicki Riskin: The truth is I don't have a lot of knowledge about that, which is why I should probably do the interview. However, I'm going to suggest that we hear from Ally.
Ally Giebutowski: I have a couple of thoughts as to why I think I would be a good interviewer for this. Mom and I both went to Belize two years ago and we firsthand spearfished lionfish and got to try it. I think that would be a strong connection and I'd really like to talk to him about his ideas on why lionfish are such an important thing to be reducing in our Atlantic waters.
Vicki Riskin: Are they bad?
Janet Kraus: They're really bad. They lay 4,000 eggs every two weeks. The thing about them is that they have no predators in the oceans here. They are from the Indian Ocean, and they have no predators here.
Vicki Riskin: That's interesting.
Janet Kraus: I have a proposal. We should go off-roading here. I think because Cleo is a foodie and Ally has this experience with invasive species in Belize, we should have Cleo and Ally interview him.
Vicki Riskin: I would vote with you, Janet. I think they would be great.
Cleo Carney: The young ones!
Ally Giebutowski: We would have to also…
Janet Kraus: I think so. All right, you guys go have fun.
Cleo Carney: Oh, I'm excited.
Janet Kraus: Come back and tell us how it went.
Vicki Riskin: We created Bluedot Living Travel for people who want more than rest and relaxation, but also want a deep and meaningful experience. Join us as we travel to beautiful places and meet brilliant people building a more sustainable world. You'll stay at luxury hotels and have wonderful farm-to-table meals and join others in conversation and reflection. And the best part: getting out into the field, engaging with people who are making it happen, and being with others who share your values. Come join us in Santa Barbara, Martha's Vineyard, Georgia's Little St. Simons Island, and the beautiful B Bar Ranch in Montana.
The Interview
Ally Giebutowski: Welcome, Bun. Today we are here to speak to you as we imagine if every meal was a step towards a greener future.
Cleo Carney: And while we got a bit of the inside scoop already, we'd love to hear in your own words just a little bit about yourself.
Bun Lai: Yeah. I grew up in New Haven, Connecticut. I'm an immigrant; my mom's from Japan and my dad's from Hong Kong. Connecticut is a coastal state, so we've got the Long Island Sound. I grew up playing in the woods and the streams and the ponds and along the Sound here, and also fishing and foraging here as well. Years ago when I was little, my mom ended up opening the first sushi restaurant in Connecticut.
Cleo Carney: Wow, the first sushi restaurant?
Bun Lai: Later, I came to join her at the restaurant, eventually became a chef, and created sustainable seafood and plant-based cuisine that also used invasive species.
Ally Giebutowski: That's awesome. I realized the slightly bad timing that we are having this conversation right at lunchtime because we're going to be talking a lot about food today. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of sushi on a college campus, but I look forward to coming back and maybe getting some.
Jumping into it, you were born in Hong Kong and moved to New Haven as a child. How did that multicultural upbringing shape the way that you see food and the environment? How are culture and connection signified in food for you?
Bun Lai: Yeah, I was really lucky enough to grow up in university apartments. One of the really cool things about that is that you have kids all over the place. Right now I live in the suburbs in the woods, but one of the things I miss most is having people around you. When we were living in these apartments, since they were university apartments, there were young families from all around the world. I got to really experience all sorts of different types of food. I had a neighbor from France, another neighbor from Israel, and just off the top of my head, a couple of friends from Kenya, Korea, other Japanese people, and many, many more. You'd walk into different apartments and they smelled differently and their food tasted differently as well.
The cool thing about that was that though I came from two different cultures Hong Kong and Southern Japanese culture both cultures are very homogenous. I ended up in the opposite of that; it was incredibly diverse. Later, when I was evolving my mother's traditional sushi restaurant, I wanted to do something as an artist that reflected my sensibilities and also paid homage to the human diversity that I was raised in. The traditional sushi eventually evolved into recipes that were inspired by all sorts of different cultures, but within the framework of sustainability.
Cleo Carney: So you mentioned your mother, Yoshiko. She founded Miya's Sushi originally and was a trained nutritionist. We wanted to know if there are any values or lessons from her that shaped your philosophy as a chef later on in your life.
Bun Lai: Yeah. My dad is a medical doctor; he's a physician.
Cleo Carney: What a great combination.
Bun Lai: I say that because I grew up in a household where food was medicine. At home, the first thing my mother would do if we were sick would be to create different recipes. Everything was the go-to healthy eating, and it wasn't really progressive thinking at that point. It was something that her mother did, and I'm sure countless ancestors did. I don't think it was just her studies in nutrition. It was really rooted in the way that people living in small communities and villages all around the world have dealt with illness and also optimized health.
Ally Giebutowski: I mean, it's true. You look at some of these places where people are living the longest and you'll see that one of the most important parts of their lifestyle is connected to food. So it's kind of special that food is at the core of community, at the core of connection, and at the core of health.
Cleo Carney: But also the ingredients you got for the food beforehand were often gathered in a method that is more traditional, but nowadays is almost all but forgotten. So, I wanted to know: was there anything that really sparked your passion for foraging and gardening? Or was it just because you grew up in nature?
Bun Lai: Yeah, I think it's the latter; it was because of nature. It was never something that was really sparked, just as it wasn't sparked in my mother. She grew up as what they would call back in the day a tomboy. She was really physical, being outside climbing trees and foraging and fishing and doing all the things that were attributed to what boys would be doing.
A big part of what she really loved to do was to go collect mountain vegetables because she lived in Southern Japan, which is really hilly and there's all sorts of mountain foraging going on. When we got here to the United States, she noticed that there were so many of the vegetables that she used to go foraging for here as well. Growing up, we'd go out and forage. Even when my mom wasn't there, my brother and I would go out and dig up long taps of burdock, which would take a lot of patience and time because they are sometimes three feet long. If you didn't have patience and you tugged on it too early, they'd just break in half.
That's how we grew up. Later, when I was trying to evolve into something more environmentally sustainable, it really made sense to use these because many of these plants, it turned out, were invasive species. While I was trying to find food that was optimally nutritious, it checked that box too, because wild plants are often exponentially more nutritious than anything that's cultivated. Not only that, many of these wild plants were brought over as traditional folk medicine as well.
Ally Giebutowski: Well, that's interesting. So it's very clear that you have realized that food brought to the table and nature are so connected. But was there a specific moment that you realized that those two are inseparable?
Bun Lai: I was really lucky to go to a local school around here called Foote, where so many of our readings were old books where children grew up in nature. Those are the books that really continued to inspire me to this day. I would literally fantasize about growing up in the woods and going out to play and pretending that I was some sort of woods person. And that hasn't changed.
Ally Giebutowski: I see that.
Bun Lai: Yeah, as you grow older, you want to mature in the way you see the world, but you don't have to lose that wonder and appreciation for the natural world. In fact, it's what you need more than ever to allow you to stay grounded and to stay healthy. Today there's so much science behind how nature exposure can be so healing.
Cleo Carney: Hi guys, I'm Cleo.
Ally Giebutowski: And I'm Ally.
Cleo Carney: And welcome to a Bluedot Living “What's in My Bag.”
Ally Giebutowski: So what is in your bag, Cleo?
Cleo Carney: Well, firstly, I love the bag itself. It's a gorgeous canvas and it has a wonderful quote saying, “Tomorrow depends on what we do today.”. But one of my favorite items from the Bluedot Living Collective, where you can find curated sustainable products, are these reusable paper towel alternatives. You never have to use single-use stuff again.
Ally Giebutowski: I would love to show you what's in my bag, this beautiful bag. One of my favorite things is these dryer balls. I will definitely be bringing these back to college instead of the toxic ones that you see in the college laundry rooms. And Cleo, where do you get them?
Cleo Carney: The Bluedot Living Collective. Go look at the products! You can get the Bluedot membership and all these items in a lovely packaged box and more, so you don't even have to do the shopping. It's just all done for you.
Cleo Carney: To move from nature to food, it seems like from what I've read, it was in the early 2000s that you really began to reimagine sushi to be more sustainable. I know kelp is very sustainable for the nori, but some elements of the fishing industry have their challenges. You removed all unsustainable seafood like tuna, eel, and salmon from Miya’s menu. I'm sure you had people come in saying, “Well, why do you not have a spicy tuna roll? Why do you not have a salmon maki?” Can you tell me a little bit about why you decided to do that? What made you realize you should not have these things on the menu?
Bun Lai: Yeah. So in the late 1990s is when I started focusing on a plant-based menu, just with the realization that sushi being totally focused on seafood alone and often not the highest quality seafood was very limiting. So by the beginning of the 2000s, I'd created a really large plant-based menu inspired by recipes from all around the world.
From there, I got into sustainable seafood around the same time I was foraging. I wasn't foraging for anything particularly; I was flipping rocks with a buddy of mine who was your age. He was an undergrad at Yale and he was a waiter at Miya’s at the same time. He had grown up in Westport, Connecticut, so he really knew what the coastal ecosystem looked like. We noticed that there were these little crabs that we hadn't seen before. When we looked them up, it turned out they were invasive species. At that point, we had a eureka moment: are these things edible? So we looked into that and then expanded out.
Back to taking stuff off the menu: none of that stuff happened overnight. Everything happened little by little as we were able to do it. Had we gotten rid of everything overnight, we would've probably gone bankrupt because people would've been shocked and not come back. So what's really important when you're making these changes in a business is to do it really in close collaboration with the audience that you have, and with the understanding of what the audience is open to. You push the envelope. The reality is that when you make these changes, you also start attracting people who are open to changes as well. While you do invariably lose some people, you gain others.
Ally Giebutowski: Yeah, there is that trade-off.
Cleo Carney: And you have to be in close collaboration with both nature and the audience.
Bun Lai: Without a doubt.
Cleo Carney: And taste.
Bun Lai: Yeah. Without a doubt. Yeah.
Ally Giebutowski: Absolutely. So that kind of brings us into our next question. I get really excited by your introduction of invasive species to your menu. Lionfish is an invasive species, and it's actually one of my favorite fish dishes. I went to Belize a couple of years ago on this conservation trip where we spearfished lionfish, and then we filleted them and we ate them. And I was like, “This is chicken.” Like, this is good-tasting chicken—better than the meals that I get at my college dining hall!
But I do understand that for some people, that switch can be daunting. Some people hear “invasive species” and they automatically go, “Oh, this is an ecological threat, this can't be a solution.” They don't see an opportunity to have a really tasty dish. So, I'm curious to see how you hope to make invasive species menus mainstream. How do you hope to bring people on board and tell them, “Hey, this is a really great solution; this is an opportunity”?
Bun Lai: People are already on board with this. That conversation was happening more like 20 years ago when I was working on sustainable seafood. Back then, you didn't really know who else was out there doing it. But now there are so many people and so many companies working with invasive species. I was at the supermarket the other day and saw wild boar in the freezer, for example. That would've been unthinkable just a handful of years ago, and certainly not a couple of decades ago.
The use of invasive species is a tool in the toolbox one of many tools to deal with the problem of the loss of biodiversity. It's an important and powerful tool, but it's not the only tool.
Cleo Carney: When you were creating new dishes in the past or working on new projects, do you find that most of your inspiration comes from just being in nature and individual instances? Like you were saying, “Oh, we saw the crabs, we looked them up, they were edible.” Or are you guided by the science of this first? Do you think, “I'm going to be an activist; I'm going to try and change the food ecosystem”?
Bun Lai: Well, first of all, we had a thousand acres of shellfish grounds and a couple of boats. Then we also have a terrestrial farm at the same time. Rather than having a nice sports car or summer homes, this was my passion: to be out in nature. I didn't do it to save money. You don't save money by doing things the right way often, but you do it because you really love it. Then you end up creating something that's absolutely different than anything that exists because you're doing it in a way that you really believe in, that others probably haven't thought of or don't want to do, or don't think it's worth taking the lead for.
But we looked all over the place and ended up doing something really different. Since I knew so little and there was so little out there in the space as far as information about the stuff we were working on, I ended up collaborating with a lot of people. For example, I didn't even reach out to him, I actually met him at the restaurant—Joe Roman, who is a conservation biologist at the University of Vermont. He is in the vanguard of invasive species as food. Then I'd worked with seaweed scientist Charles Yarish and just so many other people as well who helped us navigate the way. It was certainly not me just being inspired; other people really inspired me and taught me along the way and continue to.
Ally Giebutowski: And I'd like to just kind of look further into the future of what you hope to accomplish next. But before talking about that, we here at Bluedot Living talk a lot about how global shifts in climate reform and policy change start with those small changes that we are making in our community. It's clear that you've worked with youth and you've worked with outdoor community programs. What do you think grassroots food initiatives can do that large systems can't? And why do you think it is so important to go back to those small community solutions and then pull out those broader policy changes?
Bun Lai: Yeah, I think grassroots are fundamentally important, of course. But there's also a top-down thing at the same time. We've seen important changes happen to the world top-down, and then you've also seen it bottom-up. I do grassroots stuff, but at the same time, I used to be in D.C. pretty often speaking to people there in order to push for sustainable seafood policy changes back in the day. It's really, really important to do that while also working on ideas in a grassroots way, creating food for the community that's based on fundamentally different ideas that other people would maybe one day be inspired by and use elsewhere.
Cleo Carney: And so you said “back in the day,” and since then, obviously you've had time and focused a bit more on community food experiences, education, and environmental engagement. Which new direction are you most energized by right now? What can our listeners find hope in?
Bun Lai: Man, I think the really powerful shift that's happened today is that there's so much information at our fingertips. The science is at our fingertips right on the internet. You can look up studies through PubMed, for example, and you can easily get in contact with pretty much anybody today as well. So, it's much different today than it was 20 years ago.
Cleo Carney: Well, using the power of social media and the internet which is where this will be dispersed we want tips. So do you have any tips or guidance for an everyday person who might want to start foraging? I love actually foraging for mushrooms, which I know can be dangerous if you don't know your stuff, but I would love to hear whatever advice you have.
Bun Lai: Foraging tips. Yeah. More than anything, it's cliché, but it's really true enjoying the process and really focusing on the process. The goal of getting whatever wild food that you're out there getting is important, but for example, it's much better to forage with somebody else and make it an experience where you're connecting with someone you care about rather than just going out and trying to survive in nature alone.
Instead of literally stopping to smell the roses, so to speak, you're going to gain so much more from it because it's not just the food that you're getting; you're reconnecting with the earth and nature, and you're reinvigorating yourself with the fact that you're just outside.
Ally Giebutowski: I love this. And I'm just kind of thinking too, in a couple of weeks I'm actually going to be meeting Cleo for the first time in person. And I'm wondering, Cleo, should we go on a foraging date together?
Cleo Carney: If everything's not frozen, yes! That would be so fun.
Ally Giebutowski: Bun, what's that timeline like? How long in the year are you able to forage? Can you forage for all seasons on the East Coast?
Bun Lai: Yeah, right now it's starting to get icy. So we'll be foraging in the supermarket for more sustainable foods.
Ally Giebutowski: I like it. We can do it. Let's do that, Cleo. It’s a date.
Bun Lai: If you guys want to do some modern foraging sometime, I'd love to do that with you in a supermarket. It's also a reality. And in the wild, one of the things that you really have to know about is what to avoid.
Ally Giebutowski: Well, tell us, what should we avoid?
Bun Lai: So many people these days, if they're going to cook beans, will get beans right out of a can. But with something like kidney beans, if you just eat a handful of raw ones, you can become not only very sick, but you might end up destroying your kidney, literally. And then if you are going through the seafood section because you know that seafood's really good for you, there's a huge difference between picking out wild seafood to eat. For example, canned mackerel is much healthier than a tilapia that's farmed. Not all farmed fish and seafood is necessarily low quality, there are higher quality, sustainably raised seafood options too but you have to be educated in order to navigate that.
If you go through the bread aisle, there's a huge, vast difference between breads that turn quickly into sugar in your body and others that are made out of whole grains. And then there are ones that are organic and not organic. And if you're looking for rice, well, organic doesn't really mean that much in that what you're trying to avoid is the arsenic. If you want low-arsenic rice, then you're going to go for California rice versus a lot of other types of rice that are out there.
Ally Giebutowski: I can hear the nutritionist-meets-doctor upbringing that you had right now. I can totally understand why your parents were in those professions. It is all coming together. I think this is awesome. I'd love to get a chance for the three of us to have this experience with you.
Before we do that, the last question and this is the impetus of our podcast name is we pose this question to all of our guests as a final wrapping up of our conversation. We want you to imagine if. Imagine if there was a world where we took your values and your understanding of connection and nutrition and health when it comes to food. This is your opportunity to give us a little inside view of what your world would look like with your passion and your playful, imaginative understanding of why food can actually create a greener future. So “Imagine if…”—take it away.
Bun Lai: Imagine if we were much more curious about the different flavors around the world, and we were able to experience humanity and nature in all of its diversity. That's important in a world where diversity has created so much pain and hatred. Diversity can be healing, and is necessary, and is profoundly beautiful.
Ally Giebutowski: Profound, lovely, and such a nice extension from food to broader social issues. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Cleo Carney: Thank you for your time.
Vicki Riskin: Thank you for joining us on Imagine If from Bluedot Living. If you want to explore our recipes, products for your home and lifestyle, and read interesting stories, you can find us at www.bluedotliving.com, For daily inspiration, you can follow us at Bluedot Living on Instagram.
If you enjoyed this conversation, share it and please add your thoughts in the comments on YouTube. I'm Vicki Riskin, and we'll be back next week with more stories from great people doing amazing things in their little corner of the planet.
